Curse

Essence Snow · Oct 19, 2010, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

3 heroes + 4 hench was more than enough to do almost all Hard Mode stuff solo. There's no need for even more imba power to a solo player. There should rather be serious added benefits for playing with others so players would have an incentive to go through the trouble of grouping with others instead of loading their imba 7 heroes and facerolling almost all PvE.

Addition of heroes was already one of top 2 worst things to ever happen to PvE (it was a very common opinion back then, now the haters simply have quit so we don't hear their complaints anymore). And I was always saying that the correct maximum number of heroes per human player in a team should have been 2 - heroes should have been just replacements for missing players to make forming teams much faster instead of making everyone able to completely ignore others. Clearly Anet's going WRONG WAY - instead of fixing real problems like no grouping system or level 10 henchies in endgame content they ruin multiplayer. /epicfail

What other effect can you imagine happening than a dramatic decrease of the number of players willing to group with others? And who will be left to group, just noobs who don't even have 7 heroes yet and/or just looking for a free ride alongside someone?

Completely over-reacting. The same ppl that h/h b4 will now just hero it all. The people that wanted groups but couldn't find any, will look in Embark 1st, then fill in the gaps with heros. Embark should make grouping much easier.

Having 7 heros will not keep people that want to group from grouping. I don't see how one could think otherwise. The only exclusion will be henchmen. They will see a massive decrease in use.

Some people like PUGs...I know I do. I will go to Embark and try finding a group b4 doing anything with a full set of heros.

*lemming* · Oct 19, 2010, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It also means that you can help one or two of your friend that only have Prophecies or Factions with 5 or 6 of your heroes, instead having to let in those stu... ahem... poor henchmen join to fill gaps.

HEROES are to fill gaps. Henchmen are just a last resort.

It's as if henchmen never existed before Nightfall.

MArcSinus · Oct 19, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

I guess hench can retire now, they were only usefull in Imperial sanctum anyway because of the celestial skills.

awry · Oct 19, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Completely over-reacting. The same ppl that h/h b4 will now just hero it all. The people that wanted groups but couldn't find any, will look in Embark 1st, then fill in the gaps with heros. Embark should make grouping much easier.

Having 7 heros will not keep people that want to group from grouping. I don't see how one could think otherwise. The only exclusion will be henchmen. They will see a massive decrease in use.

Some people like PUGs...I know I do. I will go to Embark and try finding a group b4 doing anything with a full set of heros.

Total agreement here. If you're deadset on playing by yourself, you will find a way to play by yourself, even with the h/h. And i mean come on, with consumables it's not like being able to solo everything wasn't possible before. It's just now easier and people have the ability to craft their own private teams. I have nothing but pity for people who's imagination can only extend to "omg spirit spam+discord, epic rolling!" as there is so much possibility now that you have control over your whole party.

KotCR · Oct 19, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

I wonder WTF all the singleplayer-loving masses are doing in an online game... ruining it by making horrible votes.

Chances are many of them like multiplayer too, but they don't always want to deal with the added complexity (and attitudes) of other people, or just sometimes want to do things their own way while still playing a game whose mechanics and background they love.

'sides, once again, as many people have said already. It won't change too much. People who want to play solo will still play solo, people who want to play in groups will still play in groups.

Why should the people who want to play solo be forced to play in groups just to satisify those who want to play in groups but aren't being forced to play solo? Seems hypocritical.

You can't really use the henchman argument because some areas of the game henchmen aren't availiable (and wouldn't cut the mustard anyway), so those solo players are being denied access to content that group players get...and isn't one of Anets key points about their philosphy behind game design is that the player should get to play the game the way they want to play it, without being disadvantaged to degrees that matter (and I'd say having to miss out on certain content altogether is something that matters).

Konig Des Todes · Oct 19, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I have to ask; was this result really surprising?
And do you honestly think that just because a majority want something you should use that as your justification for giving it to them, particularly when PvEers are concerned. I'm talking more generally here, not just about the issue at hand, but you've set a rather disconcerting precedent here I think.

If you don't favor the majority, then who do you favor. The minority? It is the majority that gives you most of the profits. Sure, you should try to favor as many as possible, but in a situation like this, that's hard to do. Especially with such a small minority.

It really didn't set a precedent - what would, however, would be favoring the majority on multiple (say, 2 or 3) occasions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Would you like to have 50 ectos for free?

Yes/No

That's about how I interpreted this question. Game balance shouldn't be decided by the whims of the masses. Hell, "we" wanted shadow form farming and speed runs. Don't listen to us A.net. We are idiots.

This depends on the situation. And feedback before doing something is always good. Does this mean that everything the Live Team will do should be based solely off of surveys? No. But these would help them with how people (dis)like things they do.

And the 7 hero question isn't the same as 50 ectos for free - you still have to work to get those 50 ectos, but you just don't have to spend time getting other people to join you.

Everyone who's so against full hero parties I think are over-exaggerating on how "bad" this will be. For those saying about how this will be bad for pugs - Embark Beach will counter that, allowing those who want to solo to solo, and those who want to team up will have a single place to go. For those about getting items easier - it won't be any easier than it would be with other people (excluding the times you get idiots which would be on par to h/h'ing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Woah, let me get this straight.

He's promising...

New Canthan Content
GvG changes/better PvP rewards (and maybe better PvE rewards? Didn't seem him expressly say that)
Halloween "surprises"
Embark Beach (awesome idea after the HoM rewards got announced)
Full Hero Parties plus the new hero that he's already talked about
AND new Mad King jokes?

This guy has some serious cojones. Let's hope he's got the fortitude to pull it off.

EDIT: AND the Dervish skill update.

I so wish I could comment on this, but alas... NDA. :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

lso, if it's just for missions then it's pretty sucky - it's Vanquishing (and also dungeons) that need this feature the most. Vanquishing has no ZQuests and it's practically impossible to find other people wanting to do the same areas as you.

I hope you realize how ludicrous it would be if you can go to any dungeon or explorable from Embark Beach. Rather, it should be to any outpost - then you go and do whatever you partied for.

The only thing I'm curious about is what will happen to the henchmen.

NerfHerder · Oct 19, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

There should rather be serious added benefits for playing with others so players would have an incentive to go through the trouble of grouping with others instead of loading their imba 7 heroes and facerolling almost all PvE.

Its called PvE skills and critical thinking. Not to mention, alot of people simply enjoy the company of others. Many players will pug given the opportunity. On the flip side there are those who like solo play, no amount of content/updates will change that. A full hero party wont change anyones mind about thier play style and personal preferences. It can only give more freedom and opportunity for an enjoyable gaming experience.

awry · Oct 19, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The only thing I'm curious about is what will happen to the henchmen.

I'll be honest here, the newly updated henchmen builds are better than some of the usual newb's hero bars by an order of magnitude. They are still good for those beginning the game for their first time.

*Darcy* · Oct 19, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

For those bitter folks claiming that full hero parties are easy mode, keep in mind heroes are no replacement for real players, they are replacements for henchmen. A hero is no match for a real player.

Bad players will still continue to be bad, it just allows greater options for those who want to customize their party, and more importantly not be stuck with below level henchmen.

This is so true. While vanquishing might be easier, those missions requiring two conscious players will still not be doable. WiK content might get easier with level 20 heroes instead of level 10 henchmen in NM, but in HM only if you can micromanage your heroes.

But I'm greatly excited about new jokes for Mad King Thorn!!

KotCR · Oct 19, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The only thing I'm curious about is what will happen to the henchmen.

They'll still be used by Prophecies/Factions only characters, and players who haven't unlocked many skills for professions other than their own (for example, as bad as Alesia is, she still has WoH at lvl 20, which could make her superior to a Monk hero with only a handful of basic skills, or other henchmen that have really useful Elites like BHA or VoR that a player might not have unlocked for their heroes yet).

If you meant just as far as the outpost is concerned, I'm guessing it won't have any seems it transports you to the mission outpost; Which is were you'll pick any henchmen you decide to bring. You don't start the mission directly from the Beach (at least that's what it seems like).

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

I'll be honest here, the newly updated henchmen builds are better than some of the usual newb's hero bars by an order of magnitude. They are still good for those beginning the game for their first time.

Ah. Beat me to it. So true.

awry · Oct 19, 2010, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Seriously, this is all I can picture.

Oh, also, I have no idea what John Stumme looks like, so I made him the Monopoly Man.

This is the face of the god you worship.

slowerpoke · Oct 19, 2010, 02:07 AM // 02:07

I don't think Henchmen will be discarded after this update. Their AI can sufficiently make use of their skill selection. Compared that to a Hero with bad skills or a sub par build, that situation less than optimal.

There are also players who have not unlocked all the skills, so their Heroes bars would be limited. And those of course with no Heroes at all.

Sirius Bsns · Oct 19, 2010, 02:11 AM // 02:11

I'm a PvP junky by default. Reading about this proposed enablement will probably make me revisit PvE and try all kinds of builds out. Hurray for 7 heroes! Bye bye sorry-ass henchmen! Hurray! PUGs are now REALLY dead, but idc... PUGing's been dead for the longest time now, and enabling players to have 7 heroes just seals the deal!

MithranArkanere · Oct 19, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

I don't think Henchmen will be discarded after this update. Their AI can sufficiently make use of their skill selection. Compared that to a Hero with bad skills or a sub par build, that situation less than optimal.

There are also players who have not unlocked all the skills, so their Heroes bars would be limited. And those of course with no Heroes at all.

When a hero is unlocked, they come with a skil bar. A NM henchman and a hero with not upgrades in their equipment are basically the same thing with the same skillbar.

But I would keep Henchmen even if they added heroes in Prophecies and Factions.

Sytherek · Oct 19, 2010, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

I wonder WTF all the singleplayer-loving masses are doing in an online game... ruining it by making horrible votes.

Bitter, are we?

I want full hero parties; I DON NOT want a single-player game. Sometimes, for example, I'm playing with my wife (waiting for the jokes). She doesn't have equipped heroes, so we're stuck taking henchmen for some roles. Yuck. With full hero parties, we'll have more fun. We're not playing the game to impress YOU, or to spend hours hunting for a couple of people that want to do what WE want to do.

You're the kind of person who WON'T play with me, because I might not be the class you're looking for, or because you don't like my build, or because you don;t want to do what I want to. So what skin is it off your nose if I run with heroes and have fun? You don't want to play with me anyway.

THAT'S what killed human groups in PvE -- elitism. Not heroes. Not PvE skills. The snobs who only want to group if you're running a build from PvX wiki, or who don't like your class, or who won't run Normal Mode.

Yes, I play normal mode stuff, to fill out books. Try findign ANYONE who wants to do NM on a Zaishen mission...

MArcSinus · Oct 19, 2010, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Yes, I play normal mode stuff, to fill out books. Try findign ANYONE who wants to do NM on a Zaishen mission...

Cause it's plain stupid that's why, you don't get value out of it.

In NM you can do everything with hench anyway..

IlikeGW · Oct 19, 2010, 02:28 AM // 02:28

I got to say... freakin kudos to Anet for doing things so cleanly with the survey, even discussing each response. It's a really positive way to do things, and for once we see the community voice is WAY more unified than it looks on forums.

Yawgmoth · Oct 19, 2010, 02:39 AM // 02:39

It's all about difficulty for most of you. Henchies aren't that bad - almost all HM PvE is doable with 4 of them in your party (not to mention NM...). You just want it all EASIER. All that talk about customizability is BS as almost everyone will just get 7 best Wiki heroes builds and they will roll through everything for him.

It's all about difficulty. It's an easy mode button and it's obvious that the masses will always vote for "YESSS WANT MOAR EAZ BUTTON", no surprise here, and no matter how BAD for the game would those easy mode buttons be.

One of the reasons why many people still PuG is that they can't stand henchies for some reason (also difficulty related). 7 heroes will make them never PuG anymore (less players to play with = bad)

NEXT STEP - Everlasting Dhuum Summoning Stone for everyone - no need for heroes, summon a god to do all the tanking AND killing for you and get 100% drops! Same shit like Fire Imp summon does to Pre-Searing. I'm sure the masses would love that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I hope you realize how ludicrous it would be if you can go to any dungeon or explorable from Embark Beach. Rather, it should be to any outpost - then you go and do whatever you partied for.

Ofcourse I fully agree - I know there shouldn't be travelling straight to explorables or dungeons, allowing a bunch of shortcuts like that would be terribad design. Travel to outposts that have already been visited by all the party members is the only reasonable way to do it.

Horus Moonlight · Oct 19, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

I plan on doing Underworld.
But only if my heros have at least 50 stones each.

This should be quoted on every page.

mathiastemplar · Oct 19, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

This all sounds amazing and I really can't wait!

One thing I still fail to see, is why anybody could possibly be against 7 hero parties and all the other stuff...

YOU DO PLAY THIS GAME TO HAVE FUN AFTERALL DON'T YA?!
How can 7 heroes not be fun?
How can finding a group easily NOT be fun??
Why are you bitching so much???

Thanks Anet for the wonderful job, and for breathing a glimpse of life into this game.